Quentin Hubbard Coroner's Report, Death Certificate and Commentary

From dennis.l.erlich@support.com Mon Apr 10 14:56:27 BST 1995

NOTE: If you are looking for L Ron Hubbard's Coroner Report go to THIS PAGE to see it

Dennis Erlich

For those readers who never knew cult-talk, I apologize for the following.
But since the story is absolutely true and occurred while I still was, as
salesmen put it, "under the ether," I will write it as I lived it. If you
don't understand the words I use, as the chinaman said, "You betta off!"

I have commented previously that leaving scientology and re- entering
society was like landing on a different planet. I had to learn the customs and
language of the "natives," adopt their manners [or lack of] and hope there was
a place for me to fit in.

But an even greater shock was going to Flag [in Clearwater] when it first
opened for business in 1976, to become Sea Org crew in the "Mecca of Technical

First of all there was the matter of deceiving the "local wogs" with our
shore story. All staff and students were told exactly what lie to tell any
Clearwater residents who asked about our presence: we were all religious
students on retreat at the new United Churches facility in the Fort Harrison
Hotel. Fortunately for us, few of the locals even cared to talk to the
staring, stiff, and sullen students and staff. But still, it didn't take long
for them to realize we were not who we claimed to be. It became very
unfriendly in town.

Meantime, "The Friendliest Place on Earth" was also proving to be something
less than that. For me it was more like basic training in concentration camp
management. New staff and students were packed like sardines, twelve to a tiny
hotel room, in bunk beds four high with barely enough room to squeeze between
them. Any time the income fell below half a million dollars a week everyone
was assigned to "Rice and Beans." On these numerous occasions, all we were fed
was spanish rice and boiled beans. This was all part of showing the new
recruit what he was worth. The spiritual pecking order was energetically
applied and strictly enforced. Anyone new to Flag began as low man on the
scrotum pole.

Flag crew considered all "outer org" students or staff to be DBs [degraded
beings.] The fact that I had a wonderful reputation in the field and had run
the most successful Internship in the history of the cult, made no difference.
When I arrived at Flag I was treated like scum. Everyone was.

Brian Livingston [Class XII] was the Intern Sup and Jeff Walker [Class XII]
was Cramming Officer. What a line-up!

Brian, who has since blown the Sea Org and is no longer a scieno, made a
habit of getting up on a chair and screaming his lungs out at individual
interns. The standard message was that they were squirrels, out-ethics or just
plain stupid. His bellowing could be heard all over the tenth floor ballroom
of the Fort Harrison and the HCI [Hubbard College of Improvement.] Students
would hear him and go silent with terror at the thought of having to confront
Brian's wrath when they finally arrived on the internship. But this was just
fine with Brian. It made them a more cowed and compliant [than they
already were], when eventually he did have to deal with them.

Brian was the "nice" one of the two. Walker was the most feared. He
didn't have any completion statistic or bonus to contend with. He had no
vested interest in seeing that interns survived his "handling" of them. Thus,
he could act like the ruthless little prick he was.

Walker was famous for getting right up inches from your face, poking you in
the chest and screaming "PIG SHIT!" when he didn't like your answer to his
questions and wanted to show his disgust for you. One intern [who eventually
ended up in the galley], reported to cramming on a session she'd done. After
Jeff read the errors in the folder, he threw open the 10th floor windows next
to his desk [which had no screens], pointed outside and commanded her to jump.
She talked about the incident for years afterwards, claiming she barely had
enough self-control to withstand his control. This kind of thing was a joke to
Jeff. He never failed to show his disdain for people. Usually disgust was the
kindest emotion he exhibited when dealing with outer-org interns. They just
weren't up to his standard or that of Flag auditors. Those few who survived
the indoctrination, gruelling hours, retreads, retrains and the constant
shifting politics of being Flag crew were at least treated like they were
somebody. Outer org students and interns were not.

Brian and Jeff were the two individuals who trained me when I first arrived
on Flag. They were my "models" of how staff were to behave. I won't go into
any detail on what it took to survive this indoctrination, win their respect
and become a valuable member of the "team." It did, however, take some severe
personality readjustment.

While I was still "green" at Flag, having only been there less than a year,
I was posted as Jeff Walker's junior: Intern Cramming Officer, FSO [Flag
Service Org]. What a thrill! Imagine getting to be trained by the most senior
Cramming Officer in the world! It had been my dream before coming to Flag, to
be trained in Cramming by Jeff. Here I was! Right under him. Oh, what I would

Well, the arrangement was a lot better for Jeff than it was for me. He got
to stop handling those stupid outer-org interns, and I had to start.

He didn't even talk to me for several months, except to grunt his disgust
at me and the scum I was handling. I had to fend for myself, which was fine
with me because Jeff was [and is] one of the most unpleasant individuals I had
ever met and I didn't miss his charming repartee.

Apparently LRH didn't think much of him either, because two months after I
was on post as Intern Cramming Officer, Hubbard busted Jeff and posted me in
his place as Chief Cramming Officer, Flag. I was totally unprepared for what
was to follow.

I had to cram every auditor in the HGC including the Class XIIs. Since I
was only a class IV, I had to quickly study and check out on all of the
material up through Class XII. I had a person posted as my junior to handle
the interns, who was even greener than I. What a responsibility! I was now
the most senior Cramming Officer in all of Scientology. It was just what I had
wanted . . .

I found out what was meant by the saying "Be careful of what you want . . .
you just may get it." What a nightmare! The pressure was so great on me that
I don't think I said more than a 12 sentences to my wife during my first month
on post. At the end of my 18 hour day, I would drag myself to my room, too
overwhelmed to speak to or be touched -- a total vegetable.

Then the disaster happened. It was bad enough to have to confront and cram
the likes of Brian Livingston [who had since been busted to HGC auditor] and
Jeff Walker [who had worked his way back up to the HGC after his LRH bust], but
finally the supreme test -- I had to cram the Commodore's own son, Quentin, who
was also one of the Class XIIs.

Quentin was sent to Cramming by the HGC C/S for failing to get all the
reads on a C/S Series 53 when he first assessed it to an FNing list. PC didn't
progress, so the C/S ordered him to go back and assess it again. He found the
53 still reading, which indicated that reads had been missed the first time he
FNed it. [Those of you who don't understand what this was all about, are, as I
said before, better off. Suffice it to say that he'd goofed up on someone
paying many hundreds of dollars an hour for his "counselling."]

I was supposed to check his TRs, assessment and metering and see why he
messed up. It was a routine cram, but having to do it on LRH's son made it
something more.

Quentin, or "Q" as his friends called him, was 22 at the time. He looked
15 and acted 5. He was slight, blonde and effeminate in manner. While he sat
if front of me in Cramming, he was constantly zooming his hand through the air
between us and making noises simulating, much as a 5 year old would, the sound
and motion of an airplane. I had been told that he was infatuated with flying,
but I was unprepared for this: he did not stop his motions or noises through
the entirety of our conversation.

That conversation was, to the best of my recollection, as

DENNIS: "I see that you got some more reads on the 53 after it had FN'd."
[swallowing] "How do you think this happened?" Q: "I false reported."
[still zooming his hand through the air]
DENNIS: "You . . false . . . reported?" [beginning to stutter] "Uh-on the
w-worksheets?" [knowing that this was one of the highest crimes an auditor
could commit, and would require ethics handling and retraining "from the bottom
Q: "Yea. I false reported that the 53 FNed." [this said as casually as
if telling me he ate cereal for breakfast]
DENNIS: "Uh . . . " [struck with the import of the moment] Q: "I
always do."
DENNIS: "You mean . . ."
Q: "I mean I always false report when I have to FN a 53. I disagree with
having to do that on pcs. It never does anything for the pc and it costs him
hours of auditing. I think it's better to just false report and get on with
DENNIS: "?......." [dumbstruck]
Q: "I think a lot of my father's stuff doesn't work. So I false report
whenever I need to. Personally, I think my father's crazy."

[By this time, I had turned white and was sure that saliva
was dripping out of my now cavernous mouth.]

DENNIS: "Uh . . you know . . . I'm going to have to re- train you . . .
don't you?" [hoping, beyond hope that it would be ok with him]
Q: "That's fine." [zoom goes the hand in the air] DENNIS: ". . .from
the bottom up?"
Q: "Ok." [paying little attention now]
DENNIS: "Well . . .[glancing at my watch and praying it was dinnertime]. .
it's almost four . . . why don't you come back
tomorrow . . . after I've had a chance to go over the folder more carefully,
[trying to give any excuse for delaying the ethics
routing form and retrain order] . . . then we'll get you started on your
retrain." [said under my breath as he got up to leave] Q: "Ok."

By the time this short conversation was over, I was gasping for air and my
heart was pounding so loudly I could barely hear the thought screaming inside

I went running out of the Cramming room looking for the only Class XII
friend I had who had not yet blown, Ron Shafran. I found him near the swimming
pool and he made me calm down enough to tell him the story. I asked him what I
should do and he gave me the type of profound and deeply meaningful answer for
which Class XII's were famous. "I d'know. Do what you hafta!" and walked
quickly away. [He and his wife Linda left within the year.]

The next day was more or less routine, except for my underlying dread of
having to bust the Commodore's son back to the HAS course. I went about my
business and didn't notice the day had flown by without Q reporting in, until
the late evening. I decided to let it slide.

By the afternoon of the next day, he still hadn't shown. My conscience was
beginning to give me pressure. I felt guilty about my relief at his not
showing up. Was this some kind of overt I was committing? No doubt! Better
get out and do something about it.

By now Quentin's retrain was the talk of the Tech and Qual divisions. I
knew most people were betting he'd get off scot-free. He seemed to be in no
trouble at all. But I had a job to do and policy to follow. I'd get it done.

I went looking for anybody who might know where Quentin was. Nobody did.
Finally, I bumped into one of his few close friends. I believe it was Cathy
Cariotoki who finally told me: Quentin had left for the West Coast to enroll
[finally] in pilot school to learn how to fly.

I felt cheated. How could he be allowed to just skate out of the ethics
trouble he was undoubtedly, but not visibly, in? In the back of my mind the
thought: "Get real!! He's the Commodore's son, that's how."

I should have been screaming to the Qual Sec and Senior C/S about Q's
out-ethics. But instead I justified my cowardice in allowing him to walk away
with his certs not pulled, by saying, "Well, he's probably not going to be
auditing, anyway."

I was relieved, ashamed and shocked.

But, then, things had a tendency to move quickly from one emergency to
another on Flag. "On with life!" or so I thought.

A couple of weeks later I arrived in the crew dining room for dinner to
find the whole place quietly a-buzz with the news: "QUENTIN'S DEAD! NO ONE

At that moment, hand to the Lord, I thought, "Rumor has it that LRH was
really pissed at Q. It was a huge loss of face for "the boss" having a gay
son. This most recent disgrace -- the false reporting -- was the last straw. I
bet he was murdered."

We learned later that he was found in his car in the desert near Las Vegas
airport. All the windows were closed and there was a tube from the tail pipe
into the car. The car and his person had been stripped of all evidence such as
licenses, which would identify the occupant. He was still alive, but
unconscious when he was found. Something happened in the hospital and he
died two weeks later without regaining consciousness. His death was listed as
a "possible suicide." There are obviously a few questions still unanswered
about his death.

For instance, we never did find out the cause. Neither did the police.

But, when you think of the kind of life he was facing, with a megalomaniac
father who considered him a liability in a grand scheme for world domination,
there's one thing we do know about his death:


Arnie Lerma: During a talk radio show I was doing about Scientology a man called in, said that he was turning the dial and heard scientology mentioned. He said his name was Joe Leisa, I later found out that there was a Joe Leisa listed as an unindicted co-conspirator in the US vs Mary Sue Hubbard criminal trial of 1982. Joe told the following story:

"Mary Sue Hubbard hired me to find out what happenned to Quentin. He was found in the desert, with a hose running from the exhaust to the drivers window which was cracked open to accept the hose, the motor was idling. The sand around the car had been brushed clean of all markings. In the trunk was a carpet runner. Forensic examination proved that is contained hairs belonging to Quentin Hubbard on it"

Joe Liesa suggested that Quentin would have had been immobilized elswhere, transported to the site in the desert rolled up in the carpet runner in the trunk, then the event staged to look like a suicide.

Webmaster's Note added September 2004 - There was a strange emphasis in Joe Lisa's voice, that made me think that he wanted to emphasize that it was Mary Sue Hubbard who had wanted to know what happenned to Quentin, not L Ron Hubbard. Hubbard, who was deeply involved in Alestair Crowley's Satanic practices, had at one time tried to do a "Moonchild" ceremony with Jack Parsons - See Paul Rydeen's "Jack Parsons and the Fall of Babylon 1995" the only other mention I can find of anyone doing this "Moonchild" ceremony which is supposed to invoke "The Whore of Babylon" - some eveil spectre that gives you satanic power, happens to have been one of Hitler's mentors.

"From page 24 of Gods and Beasts - the Nazi's and the Occult by Dusty Sklar

"Pretzsche had introduced Hitler to consciousness-expanding drugs, as well as to astrological and alchemical symbolism. Hitler told Stein that Pretzsche had been present when List tried to materialize "the Incubus" in a ritual designed to create a "Moon Child."

If Hubbard was in fact using Dianetics and Scientology to covertly run Crowleys Satanism on an unsuspecting public, is this next law, from crowley's "Book of the Law" related in any way to Quentin's death? Did he then let his wife get sent to prison because she suspected Hubbard might have been behind it? (Quentin's death) Was this a way for Hubbard to try and invoke (in his mind ) additional dark powers? "Let the Scarlet Woman Beware I will slay me her child" Alestair Crowley's "The Book of the Law" III:43"

I asked Joe if he was still in Scientology. He didn't answer directly, but said that he stopped by and bought some of Hubbards books not too long ago.

Also see Kima's story on exit page for grisly details.. that Joe did not discuss on the air.

L. Ron Hubbard's reaction upon hearing of his son's death was, "That stupid f**king kid! That stupid f**king kid! Look what he's done to me!" (Source: "Bare Faced Messiah" by Russell Miller, Chapter 20, P. 344 http://www.scientology-kills.org

FROM: Jon Atack - "A Piece of Blue Sky" Page. 213:

February had been a very busy month. As we shall see in the next chapter, 1976 proved to be a very busy year. In October, Hubbard suffered a tragic blow. Back in 1959 his son Nibs had left Scientology. From that time, Hubbard had pinned his dynastic dream upon Quentin, his oldest son by Mary Sue.He had frequently announced that Quentin would succeed him as the leader of

214 ThE SEA ORGANIZATION 1966--1976

Scientology. At the end of October 1976, Quentin was found, comatose, in a parked car in Las Vegas with the engine still running. Quentin was rushed to a hospital where he died two weeks later, without regaining consciousness. He was not identified until several days after his death. Although no precise cause of death was determined, Quentin had certainly suffered from carbon monoxide poisoning. He was twenty-two years old. Quentin had tried to measure up to his father's expectations--he was one of the few top-grade Class Twelve Auditorsrebut he did not share his father's temperament. By all accounts he was far too gentle to govern Scientology, or indeed to govern anything. All he wanted was to fly airplanes, and he often pleaded with his father to allow him to leave the Sea Org and do just that. He had disappeared several times in an attempt to escape. There was also an aspect of his nature which could never be reconciled with his father's philosophy: Quentin was a homosexual. There is little doubt that his death was self-inflicted, as he had attempted suicide before.'' Mary Sue broke down and wailed when she heard the news. She later tried to persuade friends that her son had died from encephalitis. Quentin's father's response was cold-blooded, he was furious that his son had let him down. There was an immediate cover-up. Documents were stolen from the coroner's office and taken to Hubbard. In accordance with Hubbard's policy regarding bad news, Scientologists were not told about Quentin's death. Some who found out were told he had been murdered.

From: Arnie Lerma <Arnie@newsguy.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Quentin Hubbard Coroners Report- pgp signed [corrected]
Date: 9 Mar 1999 00:26:06 -0800
Message-ID: <7c2luu$a2m@edrn.newsguy.com>


Quentin Hubbard Coroners Report

[uploaders comments in brackets]

[blank sections of form not typed in]

Office of the Coroner-Medical Examiner   Case No 1003-76

County of Clark

545 Shadow Lane, LAs Vegas, Nevada  89106

Report of Investigation

Decedent [says  JOHN DOE on line and then has ]


             [written over it]

Age: 22

Sex MAle

D.O.B. 1-6-54

Race Wht

Address: 210 S Ft Harrisson Ave., Clearwater, Fla. 

Tel No  813 461 1267

Occupation: Student  

Employed by: Church of Scientology

S.S # None

Reported By: SNMH  11-12-76  9:55 PM

Location of Body:  S.N.M.H. Room #216 East

Type of Death  Apparent Natural____ Violent___ AT Work _____

               Not at Work ___X___

Death occurred presence of  11-12  9:25 PM SNMH Staff

Last Seen By                11-12  9:24 PM SNMH - Staff

Pronounced dead by          11-12  9:25 PM Dr. Almufdi

Cor-M.E. Notified by        11-12  9:55 PM SNMH

Body Viewed by              11-12 10:10 PM MacKinnon

Identified by               11-18 10:25 AM Arthur J. Maren - Los

Angeles Calif

Decedent Physician  Dr. Lecour

Law Enforcement

Agency  LVMPD  Officers Dibble - Jergovich

Property Receipt No. 6706  

Property in Custody of none taken

Death Notification

Next of Kin  L Ron Hubbard   Relationshsip Father

Address  Ireland

Person notified (if other than N.O.K. ) Church of Scientology

Address  210 S Ft Harrisson Ave Clearwater Florida Tel No. 813 461



Means of notification: In Person

Notification made by  Mary Rezzonico   DAte & Time 11-20-76


Custody of Body

Removed by   Mortuary Vehicle   To   CCCME

Driver Lipinkoff Assisted by MacKinnon

Mortuary Conducting Service

Mortuary Palm

Report of investigation   Case # 1003-76


Description: Height 66 1/2 Weight 111  Hair Red  Eyes Blue

Tattoos   None      Scars None identified

Other Identifying Features  Red mustache

Rigor Mortis None   Livor Mortis Slight posterior

Narrative Summary:

Viewed decedent lying on back on hospital bed nude. 

No vital signs present. 

No trauma noted. There is a I.V. in the left arm, 

a N.G. tube in place, a foley cath inserted.

There are  needle puncture marks on both arms. 

There were many little white bumps on both upper arms 

and upper chest area

According to hospital records, decedent was found 

on 10-28-76 in a car with motor still running on Sunset road.

He was unconscious.

Decadent was then transported to hospital by Mercy, 

arriving at 9:10 A.M. 10-28-76 Admitting 

diagnosis was possible carbon monoxide poisoning.

Throughout decadent's hospitalization he would have 

seizures intermittently

A Angiogram showed a possible cerebral abcess.

All other x-rays were negative.

Toxics were negative, as was the carbon monoxide.

culture of sputum and blood revealed staph, [Note 1]

coag-positive. WBC on 11-7-76 show a 17,800 count with 89% shift

[Note 2]


 Decedent was comatose throughout hospitalization 

and possible respiratory and cardiac was final cause 

of death at 9:25 PM 11-12-76


Examining Physician   Dr. Green   Autopsy_xx__ View ___ Case Not

Accepted _____



Green Hold_______________________Box


[Note 1) see [feb2002 sorry link below no longer works as reference on this ]


Note 2)"Any infection or acute stress will result in an increased

production of WBCs. This usually entails increased numbers of cells

and an increase in the percentage of immature cells (mainly band

cells) in the blood. This change is referred to as a "shift to the


from http://www.healthanswers.com/database/ami/converted/003643.html 
[ Link is dead Feb 2002 ]


Version: 2.6.2









Secrets are the mortar binding

bricks as lies together into prisons for the mind.

I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.

The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers

The internet is the liberty tree of the 90's http://www.lermanet2.com